Over A Year Later And Windows Vista Is Still Not Worth It

Then why use a propietary OS at all?

The reason, JoulesBeef, is cause he/she had no other choice. Sure, once you get the computer home, you have a choice of wiping the disk and installing a nice Linux OS (of which I am a big fan...run openSUSE 10.3 on my desktop), but how many folks feel comfortable doing that?

It's great that Dell is starting to offer up options for Linux, but until every computer shop gives you a choice of Windows or Linux, you're going to have the vast majority of folks using Windows to do some email, browse the net, and look at pictures.

I did a job back in the early spring for a small company. I needed to replace their desktop machines. I chose Dell hardware since they had good luck with them in the past. But, Dell would not sell me a machine with XP. I ended ordering the machines with Vista and struggling to get a few of their applications running. Some still did not, so there are still a few of their (very) old machines around the office just to run these older applications. That job would have been moderately difficult with XP, it was a disaster with Vista.

Since then, Dell has offered XP again

Yep. If I had that job about a month or so earlier or later, I could have ordered XP from Dell.

I think that is one of the most indicative things about Vista. Two of the biggest makers demanded that MS allow them to resume selling XP. I would love to see stats on how many Vista upgrades are sold, how many ship with new systems and how many copies of XP continue to be sold.

Vista is WAY behind in drivers and software certification and the absence of any sign of SP's in the near future is not good.
Microsoft will blame it on hardware and software mans. for not being 'Ready' for the new system. (What arrogance!)
Check with your modem manufacturers web site to see if they have Vista compatible drivers.

It is also a clear demonstration of the Law of Diminishing Returns in technology. When new technology is discovered, great strides can be made. There is always a final limit on what technology can do.

Imagine trying to go somewhere by moving half way of the distance left. As you get closer, the steps get smaller and smaller. We are getting to that point where the 'improvements' are not that significant.

Have you noticed that the prices for new computers with new technology have remained pretty constant? They know what people will pay and tailor the new hardware to fit the price profile.

To me, it's Apple software that looks like it was designed for mindless idiot hipsters who have to be force-fed the duckies-bunnies-pigs-and-sheep version of software concepts via smarmy commercials or a kewl new Nelly Furtado single.

Windows runs on literally thousands and thousands of different hardware configurations, and Apple software runs only on Apple hardware.* It's not even a fair comparison: Windows is a more complete OS.

*I don't know how iTunes works on Macs, but iTunes on Windows is a memory-leaking driver-hating non-device-recognizing hardware-freezing piece of crap. I don't think Apple really pays much attention to interoperability.

To me, it's Apple software that looks like it was designed for mindless idiot hipsters who have to be force-fed the duckies-bunnies-pigs-and-sheep version of software concepts via smarmy commercials or a kewl new Nelly Furtado single.

More FUD...

To me, it's Apple software that looks like it was designed for mindless idiot hipsters who have to be force-fed the duckies-bunnies-pigs-and-sheep version of software concepts via smarmy commercials or a kewl new Nelly Furtado single.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I assure you that regardless of any methods employed in marketing Apple products, my productivity has increased since I switched to Apple.

Windows runs on literally thousands and thousands of different hardware configurations, and Apple software runs only on Apple hardware.* It's not even a fair comparison: Windows is a more complete OS.

I personally like a few well tested configurations rather than thousands of configurations that might have issues.

*I don't know how iTunes works on Macs, but iTunes on Windows is a memory-leaking driver-hating non-device-recognizing hardware-freezing piece of crap. I don't think Apple really pays much attention to interoperability.

I would agree that I have seen a few versions of ITunes that caused issues on PCs. But typically another update was available within a short period of time (I think it was 3 days) that fixed the problems with ITunes. The mindset I've grown accustomed to since switching has been "If it has a problem, check for an update" instead of "I sure hope these updates don't crash my computer"

*I don't know how iTunes works on Macs, but iTunes on Windows is a memory-leaking driver-hating non-device-recognizing hardware-freezing piece of crap.

I have only had iTunes for the last 2 months when I bought my iTouch, but I installed iTunes 7.4.3.1 and have had 0 problems on Windows XP Pro as far as installation, syncing up and running. At the heaviest CPU times, I have seen it take 4% CPU resources, so to me, that is not a issue. The only single issue I have had with iTunes and the iTouch was not syncing all my Calender appointments with Outlook and getting on the support forum got that fixed in less then one day.

Just my 2 cents..

And you had absolutely no hardware/software conflicts or issues?
You are one of the lucky ones.

Me too. I love my Vista. No problems at all. Thank you Microsoft.

Proof of the existence of parallel universes!

You speak as if there are only two universes. There are many:

1. Those that do not use any OS or computers. -- the largest
2. Those that use Windows. -- second largest
3. Those that use Linux -- third largest. 4. Those that use Mac -- smallest, mainly consisting of brainwashed robots for whom Apple is God.

If you get Vista pre-installed on a new PC then it's a lot less painful. If you're upgrading an older PC then prepare for the pain. I have both and except for the annoyance of the upgrade, once I got all my latest drivers and software updates I've never had a problem with Vista. It works just fine for me. There are a few programs that don't run on Vista but nothing critical - for me anyway.

4. Those that use Mac -- smallest, mainly consisting of brainwashed robots for whom Apple is God.

Wow. Such arrogance and utter stupidity in a comment. Way to go!

My Experience with Vista was with a Compaq laptop, one of the first approved for "the new Windows XP" so I figured that the whole Vista thing might be a problem as the Vista upgrade adviser was giving me a few warning especially about the video card (which of course there is not much you can do about). I have heard the same with people as far as having New machines with Vista, then no problems. Heck even the XP SP2 upgrade had its problems at first !

No, my friend, arrogance would be if I were to say that Windows is the best of all. I didn't say that.

As for the rest, it is pretty much true. Nothing stupid about it.

The universe of Mac users is the smallest compared to the other 3 I listed.

It is from my personal experience that I say that most Mac users seem to think Apple is God and can do no wrong. On the other hand, Windows users do not think Microsoft is God. Heck, a lot of them even hate Microsoft/Bill Gates.

In fact, it seems Mac users are the ones with attitude - they are like snobs that look down upon "lowly Windows users." Or make such high-and-mighty comments like you did. Lemme guess you are a Mac user?

I have used PCs since 1984. I have seen the gamut from the days of DOS, Windows 3.1,95,98, etc... I switched to a Mac last year and am offended that you would rather group people together so you can write them off rather than accept that different things work for different people. I run XP simultaneously with my Apple OS. I switched because Windows Vista represents a step backward in operating systems. I chose to take a step sideways instead and see what Apple had to offer. While it isn't perfect, it is "end result" focussed instead of getting caught up in the madness of why the "inbetween" isn't working properly. The reality is that it is unlikely that Microsoft will correct their error and new hardware purchasers will be forced to migrate to Vista because hardware support will not be available. Its how all the operating systems are forced down our throats. I was content with DOS 6.22 and windows 3.11.... try to get away with that with new peripherals!

I also switched to Mac within in the last year after Beta-testing Vista, or Longhorn depending on what you want to call it. The fact is that 95% of stuff can be done on either platform. It really just depends on taste and preference. When running Windows I'd always wait for the first service pack to come out before upgrading, but I've already made the upgrade to Leopard at home. Needless to say I'll never go back to Windows. My opinion is simply that I didn't abandon Windows, Windows abandoned me.

Guys, I'm so old that my first computer was an AppleII, not IIe, just II. I remember loading the OS off a disc everytime I booted up.

I moved from apple to ms because of the cost of apple products and because of the availability of programs I wanted (games mostly).

Point is, I wouldn't buy a lisa and I won't buy Vista.

Yikes you are old !
My first was a Ohio Scientific Superboard II, you loaded CP/M off a cassette tape into its mighty 4 k of Ram.. years later I had my Apple 2, but first went thru my Osbourne, TRS-80, etc.....I had almost forgotten about the old Lisa !

Tedd, my first computer required a punched paper tape input. It was a military contraption with no particular name but was meant to do targeting math. I really don't remember what my first computer was other than it was from Tandy or Radio Shack. My first PC used for office was an Ohio Scientific with two large floppy drives and 47k RAM. One of the Sadler boys was the designer of the Ohio Scientific, they were built in Cleveland but Paul and his Dad had the first computer business in Coshocton, OH. They ended up as Clover Computor which has since been sold to some black box operation. At times I had many Tandys, an Adam (sure wish I could find a working one of them) and several early suitcase computers which I can no longer name. My first real PC was an IBM 282 with one of the very first 10 meg hard drives.

I had the same Ohio Scientific at work, it used two 8 inch floppies and had a large red restart button (used often !) wired up to a model 28 TTY. I forgot about my Adam ! We used the OS to compute RC circuit design and FFT for filter design for a Army project we were working on. I missed the punched tape days, but when I went off to college I had to use IBM punch cards on the IBM 360/370 to do my FORTRAN programming classes ! Yikes,,,

I first used a computer in 1962. My first computer was the Apple ][ as well. I remember looking for good tape recorders to save programs and data on. You always saved things 3 times to be sure you MIGHT have one good copy. We were so happy to get disc drives.

My first hard drive cost over $400 for a 20 MB (YES that small) and ONLY had 10 bad sectors.

Oh yeah I actually found my "Lotus Hard Card" with its Huge 10 MB harddrive ! I remember trying to order the "special" NEC data cassette recorders so I could load on the first time. And have a list of ALL of the BBS systems in a 3 ring binder. Different world...

I have the complete RBBS software and binder for sale - CHEAP

Including a High Speed 1200 baud modem too ?

I remember the 300 baud modems - a character at a time came across. Then the 1200 came along - a WHOLE WORD at a time (if it was a short word). 2400 baud gave us whole lines at a time. They said that was as fast as we would ever need.

Why go any faster then 2400 baud, I could only read at about 1800-2400 baud anyway ! I had one of those neat little NEC 8201 portable tablets, 4 lines of text with 20 characters. Radio Shack had a version also, forgot what it was called. It was neat, had a built in 300 baud modem, Software for Compuserve, BASIC, and I remember all the news people always lugging them all over the place for news stories. I did my engineering field updates on those things !

@mubarak-hussein

Calling millions of users brainwashed robots is arrogant and stupid. Period. You just insulted a very large percentage of Newsvine users as well.

I remember the 300 baud modems - a character at a time came across. Then the 1200 came along - a WHOLE WORD at a time (if it was a short word). 2400 baud gave us whole lines at a time. They said that was as fast as we would ever need.

I still have a 300 baud acoustic coupler modem (you remember, the kind you had to up an old-fashioned phone into the rubber pieces), complete with the original documentation. The online services offered (for a subscription fee) were Compuserve, The Source (always one of my favorites), GEnie (the General Electric Network for Information Exchange...another favorite), and WSJ Online (Wall Street Journal.) Ah, the memories!

11.21

Listen, pal, I didn't say all. Only a large majority. I guess the dislike is mutual. If I had a penny for each time a Mac user made a snide comment about lowly Windows users like me, I would be richer than Bill Gates by now. Now if you want to claim that Mac users never insult or look down upon others, then I have a new unopened, unlocked iPhone to sell for $99 and even without a credit card.

As for your second point, I doubt a "large percentage" of Newsvine users are Mac people. I'd say less than 5%.

I still have a 300 baud acoustic coupler modem

Hah no way..... the rubber has gotta be rotted away by now ! Yeah I used to carry those things and bang the darn receiver hard against the table before making a call to make sure the thing would make a good enough connection for that "high speed data" I loved C-Serve even with that damned number for a email address. Source was great, I ran up some nasty bills with GE and WSJ ! Whoa.....that was really a painful memory... but hey it was fun. And no spam mail, no virus crap. I actually found my old Newton the other day, battery is long long gone, but it still looks like a tri-corder ! Now just have to figure out what to do with all those really useful Centronics printer cables I have around here.....

As for your second point, I doubt a "large percentage" of Newsvine users are Mac people. I'd say less than 5%.

Well, you'd guess wrong.

What's funny is that you keep trotting out the tired straw man argument of the Windows user bashing Mac person. Look around. You'll see people on this thread (and many, many others) saying they use OS X and love it. You'll see people say they use Linux and love it. You'll see see people saying they switched away from Windows and are happy. You'll see people saying they went back to XP because they didn't like Vista...But it's *you* who personally insulted Mac users, calling them brainwashed robots, only to then hide behind the veil of imagined persecution. Have you even been to Digg? The Mac *user* hating/bashing crowd is large and loud and far outweighs those bashing Windows users (for using Windows.)

As for your second point, I doubt a "large percentage" of Newsvine users are Mac people. I'd say less than 5%.

Well, you'd guess wrong.

Gecko, my friend, after I stopped laughing, here goes:

Your "poll" had 146 users. 146!

Are you saying that it represents a "large percentage" of Newsvine users?

Are you saying that since 54% of the 146 who voted on your poll are Mac devotees, that a "large percentage" of Newsvine users are Apple folk?

I'd think there are at least 100,000 users. So, 79 on your poll represents 0.079% of Newsvine. A whopping 0.079%!! Still think it's a "large percentage"?

Your "poll" had 146 users. Are you saying that it is representative of the whole of Newsvine? If so you got a bigger ego than I thought, my friend.

As for my original point, it is more common that a Apple guy bashes the Windows user than the other way around. Heck, it comes from the top - you can see the Apple commercial on TV trying to make the Windows users look bad. And folks like you parrot it.

I love polls, you can prove anything you want with one. The verbiage in the paragraph asks what OS they USE but the question asks which they PREFER.

I have used Apples/Macs since the beginning. I went away because of the closed architecture. I have had a lot of lectures by Apple users about what an idiot I am for using the PC. I use the PC because I use a lot of applications that are NOT available on a Mac.

Macs are fine for people that simply want to USE a computer and few applications. PCs are better for people that know how to make a computer do new things. Each has its good points.

Was that Yamaha or Suzuki ? Different Strokes for different Folks

I grew up using both. Mainly at GTE we used the PC for the more heavy bean counting/financial applications running Lotus 123 and the early versions of AutoCad for the drafting department and the YellowPage people loved the Mac for laying out the advertisements for printing. Each had its own advantages. I was lucky enough to have one of each and evaluated the first Aldus Pagemaker for both PC and Mac which we used. Some ended up using MacDraw for simple layouts for the Mac and come out with some great results. Along came Office and Word/Excell replaced all that. Yet the graphics side of the house still clung more to the Mac applications, the engineering and finance side more to the PC due to software applications.

One thing that stood out. The Mac users sure learned faster how to come out with some pretty nice looking applications. We tested the same thing years later when I was working with Microsoft with new users and computers.

However to put users into "slots" as Mac users or PC users ? A computer is a tool, nothing more. There are parts of a Mac that I prefer, there are also part of a PC that I prefer better as I feel I have more direct "control" over the PC. Althou with later releases of software that control I feel I am losing.

When I see a really good Mac user show his/stuff with graphics (I am mainly into high end photography) I feel like junking my PC at times. However it has been almost 8 years since I have been really up to speed on the latest Apple's and I wonder if they have the software that I am looking for. Mapping GIS ? I am sure in the PhotoShop end that is a no brainer.
However I still feel that both can coexist. Why try to force feed one machine to do anothers task ? Graphics, Musics applications, Editing have always been a strong area for a Mac, why try to force a PC to do that ? The same issue comes up time and time again when people try cram a PDA, GPS, and phone all into one. None of them really work that well.
I still need to do some serious looking at Leopard. My trusty 200 GB Compaq Presario Windows XP Laptop with Tons of MSDN software is starting to give me some serious trouble these days with lockups occuring at a daily rate. So before long, once again, I am going to be faced with that decision of what to do. Its a scary step, I have had many years with Microsoft experience, yet perhaps a change might be in order ?

mubarak: Where did you get your OS breakdown stats? I found a breakdown that places different flavors of Windows at just over 91.52%, different flavors of Mac OS at about 6.25% and ALL others including Linux at only 2.23%. Linux alone is only 0.67%. That is hardly close to the share that Apple has.

Unless you have a citation to support it, your market share breakdown is bogus.

Unless you have a citation to support it, your market share breakdown is bogus.

From the link provided by gecko in 11.25. You tell me if it's bogus. gecko might not like that.

Gecko85's claim is completely different. Those number are a Newsvine poll.

What is your claim? Newsvine users? Worldwide market share? Your universe theory in 11.4 is a complete fantasy. Unless, of course, you have a citation to back it up. Do you?

@mubarak-hussein

Your "poll" had 146 users. 146!

It's called a sample. Perhaps you should look it up. Polls don't encompass all users, well, ever. Not even close. My point was that there are a large percentage of Mac users here on Newsvine. If you'd been around here a while, you'd know that. That "poll" was on the front page a while back, and a representative sample took part. The numbers aren't exact by any means, but they clearly show more than the 5% you pulled out of your you-know-what. At least I can back my claims up with *something*, whereas you have absolutely nothing.

As for my original point, it is more common that a Apple guy bashes the Windows user than the other way around.

Prove it. Find the threads where Apple users are bashing Windows users. I can find hundreds where it's the other way around. Sure, there are a few bad "apples", but the overwhelming majority of Apple users will talk about how much they like the OS, or how they switched recently and haven't looked back. It's the Windows users that toss around claims of "brainwashing", "drinking the kool-aid", "parroting" claims, etc. You seem to have this notion in your mind that it's the other way around. Now, go ahead and prove it. You can start with this very seed...

@Dr Know

Macs are fine for people that simply want to USE a computer and few applications. PCs are better for people that know how to make a computer do new things. Each has its good points.

Your last point is true: each has its good points. But, I disagree on your first two points. Mac OS X is a fully certified Unix operating system. I *guarantee* people who know how to make a computer do new things can do *much* more with OS X than with Windows. I was a Windows power user for many years. I've been an OS X user for a year and a half or so, and I can tell you that I can do much more with OS X that I ever could with Windows. The free and open source development community is HUGE for OS X. The quality of free or cheap programs for Mac is truly astounding...

Now, go ahead and prove it. You can start with this very seed...

You know what? I'll go ahead and get you started by taking care of this seed.

Windows users bashing Mac users: 2

To me, it's Apple software that looks like it was designed for mindless idiot hipsters who have to be force-fed the duckies-bunnies-pigs-and-sheep version of software concepts via smarmy commercials or a kewl new Nelly Furtado single.

Those that use Mac -- smallest, mainly consisting of brainwashed robots for whom Apple is God.

Mac users bashing Windows users: 0

Ok, there you go. It's 2-0 in favor of Windows users doing the bashing...

Jay Butler in 11.29

Your link is only for the home market share. I'm talking about Planet Earth. You prolly don't know about universities - they are overwhelmingly Unix based. That itself should tell you that there are more users of Unix in the world than MacOS. Not to mention the developing world which is pretty much either Windows or Unix (mainly Linux). You see Apple is too expensive for the majority of the world's population. Go to China, India, Vietnam, chances are you'll see more Windows and Unix OS's than Mac.

gecko in 11.33

You asked the question to someone but I'll jump in anywayz. You didn't really think it was hard to find a Mac user bashing Windows, did you? Particularly on a website as Newsvine. Took me all of 4 and a half minutes. Here goes:

Paul Bulus

I wouldnt use it even if it was free for download and worked on my PC.

Newsflash: Nothing works on a PC period.

Ryan Funduk

Apple dev's are awesome. This is the kind of thing that makes me like them so much as a company. They obviously care about their products. Microsoft dev's probably wouldn't even RECOGNIZE their OWN code if they saw it on some blog...

SEO uk

Given the choice, using Mac OS is a no-brainer. - I would like to mention that the use of windows isn't a choice but a forced notion.

Juliet

i now love apples even more. windows people are getting stingey about their work. very business like (cold, hard, mean, etc)

apples macs have no limits on anything. windows pcs are getting too close minded.

and also, if that (the windows that come up are at angle thing) is true, like on the adverts, then it sucks! gees windows microsoft whatever youre called, get a clue!!!

right-wing-man

DIE PC DIE.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Apple.

Paradox460

The windows nazi

"NO WINDOWS FOR YOU! NEXT!"

Look, pal, gecko, yours is exactly the kind of attitude that prevents more Windows users from switching over to Apple. You guys think you are superior and that you do not bash anyone whereas anyone can see the bashing that comes from Apple users is pretty much always more vitriolic than that coming from Windows users. You can choose to live in denial or you can have an open mind.

As for the score, I'll leave that for you to update.

They have to feel superior - they have to justify the expense they paid for their machines.

mubarak-hussein, I mean, Troll:

You're obviously just not getting it, so this will be my last response to your trollish posts.

1. You openly bashed Mac *users*, calling the entire group brainwashed robots.
2. You later asserted that there are far more Apple users who bash Windows *users* then vice-versa.
3. I pointed out, starting in this thread, that you are mistaken. I looked at all posts in one seed/thread.
4. You respond by linking to various comments spread amongst multiple seeds...and all of your examples show people bashing *Windows* and/or *Microsoft*...None of your examples show Mac users bashing Windows *USERS*.

You then go on to spout more drivel about superior attitudes, etc., when you obviously can't even bother to look in the mirror.

I have not bashed a single Windows user. In fact, I *am* a Windows user (although primarily a Mac user since I switched.) You, on the other hand, have done 100% of the bashing in this thread.

I'm done with you. You obviously don't get it and evidently never will. Luckily, the majority of users reading this thread will recognize your FUD for what it is.

mubarak-hussein, I mean, Troll:

It takes one to recognize one. I knew it right from the moment you jumped it.

You're obviously just not getting it, so this will be my last response to your trollish posts.

I have a feeling you'll be back for more attention. All trolls do.

1. You openly bashed Mac *users*, calling the entire group brainwashed robots.

As if Mac users haven't openly bashed Windows users on Newsvine.

2.You later asserted that there are far more Apple users who bash Windows *users* then vice-versa.

I provided links.

3. I pointed out, starting in this thread, that you are mistaken. I looked at all posts in one seed/thread.

I provided links all of which were in 2 posts. Divide them up and you still have more bashing per thread than in this thread. Who're you trying to fool, my friend?

4. You respond by linking to various comments spread amongst multiple seeds...and all of your examples show people bashing *Windows* and/or *Microsoft*...None of your examples show Mac users bashing Windows *USERS*.

2 threads, read that again, pal. (And enough with the playing semantics game.)

You then go on to spout more drivel about superior attitudes, etc., when you obviously can't even bother to look in the mirror.

Looks like neither can you with your superiority complex.

I have not bashed a single Windows user. In fact, I *am* a Windows user (although primarily a Mac user since I switched.) You, on the other hand, have done 100% of the bashing in this thread.

I'm done with you. You obviously don't get it and evidently never will.

Thanks for the condescending tone. You prove my point, yet again.

Luckily, the majority of users reading this thread will recognize your FUD for what it is.

You are the one that's doing the attacking. Now that you've nothing else, you're resorting to troll accusations and FUD and what not. Luckily the majority of users reading this thread will recognize your FUD for what it is.

See you again. Soon.

mubarak:

Your theory is still an fiction until you can provide a citation that supports it. I use all three OSes and like all three for various reasons. Linux is growing. But, it is still a sliver of the desktop share (even worldwide). If that is not true, prove it. Please don´t bother restating your opinion without proof.

Note: pretty lame that mubarak-hussein changed his name to "Moderator".

Don't be thrown off.

Note: pretty lame that mubarak-hussein changed his name to "Moderator".

Don't be thrown off.

"Troll" must have been taken. ;-)

"Troll"

How did you guess his password so fast ?

I agree, it was pretty lame, however I am not surprised....

I do not blame Microsoft but Lexmark

then you dont undertsand ms driver process
it's a bit harder these days.. and drivers must be signed.

It is from my personal experience that I say that most Mac users seem to think Apple is God and can do no wrong. On the other hand, Windows users do not think Microsoft is God. Heck, a lot of them even hate Microsoft/Bill Gates

Gosh, now I wonder why that is?

Thanks for the link to the Longhorn Promo. I had forgotten just how much stuff in Longhorn had been jettisoned.

BUT, if that had been the final product, there is so much clutter within the OS that it wouldn't have been a productivity enhancement-- it would have hurt things. Of course, I've become accustomed to the Mac world where "Less is more".

Windows 2k was my favorite Windows OS (Windows 98 SE is a close second). Very stable, very fast. It was missing some features that XP incorporated - like being able to burn a CD and compress files without third party software, but its speed made up for it. It may have been "half an OS" in regards to taking half the resources to be functional. Windows 2000 was released for business use while the horror known as Windows ME was released for the home. XP was supposed to replace both of them. If 2000 was only unfinished XP then at that schedule, Vista should be complete around second or third quarter 2009. Makes me really glad I made the move to Apple.

I still think Windows 2k was the best OS Microsoft had, I never had any problems with it.

Ahhh... The good old days of Clippy's ever so timely appearances and remarks...

Bottom line, you paid for the highest priced OS. The problems have been with Basic and "Premium".

Bottom line the right hardware costs money.

Bottom line if you have enough money you can pay someone to get it to work. (They do charge for tech support now)

I find it interesting how each camp (who is adamantly against the other product), has so much experience with the product they have never used. I have used (and still have) BOTH products. I have NEVER had to involve a tech person for any reason.

The MACS are excellent for what they do but the closed architecture limits their versatility.

The analogy about Cadillacs is a good one - Cadillacs cost more, used to offer a lot of comfort that you could not find in another product, and made the owners think that they were somehow special and more intelligent than others.

Bottom line - if you really made the best choice for you, you should be able to smile and let the users of the opposing product be wrong. Feel sorry for them, don't attack them. All the vitriol makes me wonder if some are not defending a bad choice they made.

The MACS are excellent for what they do but the closed architecture limits their versatility.

Please explain to me how Mac OS X is more closed than Windows.

OS X is a fully certified Unix OS. That opens it up to virtually anything that will run on Unix, as well unlimited scripting, coding, and tinkering. OS X is infinitely more open than Windows. Please explain how or why you believe otherwise.

Architecture refers to the cards and devices that can be attached to a computer. Originally you had to have a printer specifically produce for an Apple in order for it to work. Apple has opened the architecture a bit recently. Architecture refers to HARDWARE the OS is SOFTWARE.

Architecture also refers to the OS. The OS *is* an architecture. There's hardware and software architecture. The OS is a collection of kernels (and micro kernels) that give access to the hardware (memory, CPU, etc.) as well as external devices.

Definitions aside, your assertion that "originally you had to have a printer specifically produce for an Apple in order for it to work. Apple has opened the architecture a bit recently" is so far off base as to be laughable. Apple hasn't required proprietary hardware for a very long time. Any USB printer will work with OS X, as will any USB or bluetooth mouse, USB or bluetooth keyboard, etc. Even my 4 year old USB scanner worked immediately upon connecting it to my Mac. (The scanner was originally purchased for use with an XP machine...) Need an external hard drive? No problem. Pick up any USB or Firefire drive and plug it in. Want to add additional internal hard drives to your Mac Pro? No problem. Pick up any SATA hard drive and plug it in.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and kind criticism. I always appreciated a clear and reasoned argument. I have been building computers since 1962 how long have you been building your knowledge base?

I would expound more BUT the winds have decided to alter the hardware architecture of my house by blowing a big tree over on the roof.

Sorry to hear about your house.

As for my knowledge base: I've built over 200 PCs from scratch. I've been using home computers since I borrowed a TRS-80 Model I (with a whopping 4k of RAM) from my uncle, and have logged time on Vax, Burroughs, and others. I've used MS operating systems since about DOS 2, and Windows since version 3.

I realize you have many years of experience and a vast amount of knowledge, but perhaps it's time to update some of the tired platitudes like those saying that Apple computers require proprietary hardware peripherals.

Then perhaps you can retire the tired platitudes about Apple products being far superior.

I never said they were far superior...Just trying to fight the good fight and correct incorrect assertions.

I have Vista on one of my Mac's. It's just for the games. all the work i do is on the Apple OS. If you can remember that far back, Microsoft Office was on the Apple almost two years before it was made for PC's, when Windows came out.

Architecture refers to the cards and devices that can be attached to a computer. Originally you had to have a printer specifically produce for an Apple in order for it to work. Apple has opened the architecture a bit recently.

"recently" as in, the past 6 years or so. Or about the time it took for Microsoft to develop Vista…

…and yet, plug any old piece of external hardware into a Mac and it will work just fine, but try plugging a mere 2-year old peripheral into Vista and it's anyone's guess whether it will work at all.

External hardware support on the Mac platform is vastly larger than on Vista, so much so that it's become a huge selling point for the Mac, and a major reason for tons of people not to upgrade to Vista (yet / at all).

And computer architecture is definitely about both hard– and software, and Mac OS X is definitely much more open (and yet still more secure) than Vista.

As more MACs appear, there will be security problems. MACs are secure because there are far more PC based computers to attack.

degenerating into a fight

I have kinda noticed that any article that has anything to do with OS's in anyway at all turns into a fight or at the very least a snide comment. Rather side to see as I have backed away from the subject myself to avoid the flame wars !

Since I have no idea what OS, Newsvine uses...Maybe this is safe. Anyone notice when you vote on a user comment that for about a 1/2 second you get what looks like a small box appear directly above the check symbol ? I'm running IE7 and just noticed that this morning.

Interesting results, DWing...How did you compile your stats?

Google analytics, I'm guessing... You can break it down even further. For instance, I had 3 hits the other day from someone using Windows ME. Can you imagine....

Another interesting stat from analytics... 47% of my hits are from windows/firefox. Only 32% are windows/internet explorer. Microsoft may still own the lions share of the worldwide browser market, but Newsviners prefer Firefox...

Windows ME

Hey I suffered thru that entire Beta, only to come out with a product that last what about a month or so ? Yikes someone really is using ME ? Scary ! Almost as bad as Microsoft Bob!

It took me 45 minutes to install ME - 5 to dump it.

The only thing I liked about it was my USB driver on my camera worked, other then that, it went out the window fast.

5. iPhone 3 0.06%

7. iPod 1 0.02%

I wonder if any Windows Mobile users ? I have tried on my Windows Mobile PDA, Windows Mobile Phone, and iPod iTouch to go to the Newsvine website and it ends up at Newvine.com.mob and never allows me a chance to login. Is there a trick to it that I am missing ?

Outlook 2007

Barney,
A little off the subject....I have a Compaq laptop and the video card stops me from going with Vista. But was thinking of Moving from Office 2003-->2007. I have OneNote and Publisher 2007 already and like those, I have tried out Word 2007 and well....I felt lost trying to figure out where things are located. Outlook is the one big mystery. Some people rant and some rave about it. What is your feeling ? That is the one program for me out of the office series that in the real world gets the most use these days.

Good thread by the way !

They offer updates on Office mostly to get more money from you. Before you 'upgrade' check on what really new features it offers and whether you will ever use them before you spend the money. (Open Office is free and does almost everything the paid product does.)

I like Open Office...I use the NeoOffice variation, though, on the Mac. Can't wait to see the "official" Mac-inized version of OO.

Open Office is nice, fast, clean, no bugs. ( or at least few of them)